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Again, I do not know. Right; my understanding is that he is Seekijg going to do so, qulsarry I understand where you Sseking he may or may not, but we really do not know. So, laides are basically saying let us just put this off? Matsui, that Seeking ladies in qulsary not really my intent. I understand what you are saying, and I do not mean to interrupt, but I am on a 5-minute rule here. So, let me just say this, then. You are saying that we really do not need to make changes? Because your testimony really kind of said that, though it did not really say that. So, you are saying that basically, we do not need to make changes; the current situation with the WEP and the GPO are fine?

Or are you trying to have it both ways? I just want to know, because I just want to know what we are up against. If I might interrupt you, I believe that whether it is changed is our job and not Mr. I understand that, but you do have a President, and he makes a lot of recommendations. I assume that he will not want to duck this one.

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So, I was wondering what the position might be. The Administration has no position on whether or not-- Mr. So, you are ldaies today to tell us that you have no position on whether or not Seeiing should be a reform of the GPO or WEP, one; and then, secondly, you are here to say whatever you do, do not do it until we do Social Security reform; and three, lastly, that I do not know when this Social Security Seekimg is coming up? So, I would like some help. What ladiess you telling me? What did we waste our time here talking about this for?

Well, I do not think it is a waste of time, Mr. Matsui, with all due respect. Well, what is the President's position Seeming this? What is your position on this? The Commissioner's position on this is that, the SSA is here and willing to work with the Committee on addressing whatever issues it thinks it needs to address with respect to these programs. I would like to move over to another area. You are suggesting, I think, and GAO is suggesting as well, that no general fund monies go into this. At least your testimony kind of Seking or at least ruled out general fund monies going into solving this ln is that correct? I believe that is correct. Right, but I am sure you have, because you are obviously second in command at the SSA you have had an opportunity to review the Commission's recommendations to the President on his Social Security privatization proposal.

I am sure you Seeking ladies in qulsary is that qulxary Yes, you are qulaary with the three proposals. In two of those proposals, there is a recommendation of general fund monies at least for a temporary period of time to go to pay for the private accounts; is that correct? So, you ladues willing to do it for private accounts and privatizing Social Security, but you are not willing Seeiing do it to help widows. I do not understand that. Where are the values there? You cannot answer that. So, I understand; I just want to--let me finish. You are willing to use general fund monies to Daibe xxx gairls for private accounts, for privatizing Social Security, but you are not willing to do it for first responders like firefighter families, police officers' families, and teachers' families.

Is that correct, Mr. No, I would not put it that way. How would you put it, then, if you could tell me? I would like to get to the bottom of this. Well, not to be argumentative, Mr. Laddies, but the provisions Sefking that we are talking about, while they affect government employees, they are not really targeted necessarily to those whom you have identified. They apply to government employees across the board. Again, we are here to work with the Committee in any way that we can ladied assist in addressing these inn Mr. I would like to mention at this point that two of the recommendations did increase a widow's benefit as does on particular reform of Social Security, and I would be very happy to entertain the gentleman from California's proposal should you put one on the table.

Will the gentleman allow me to respond? Which pays every bit of it back-- Mr. Yes, in the year If I might just respond to the gentleman and his first question, you do not pay it back until the year Well, it pays it back, and it does not decrease benefits. We are looking at some huge problems, but we have got our plate full on this particular subject, and we need to go forward on it. I would be glad to put my proposal next to the gentleman's proposal, should he have one. I think we should just vote on your proposal. I appreciate the testimony so far and know this is an important issue. I think Social Security is confusing, and I think there are some myths associated with the dealing with GPO that we need to discuss today.

What I really wanted to do was go from the abstract to the real. This is a comparison for GPO. This is when you have identical families who have worked the same amount of time; who have got identical retirement benefits, and we chose basically the average family in America. It varies a little by State-to-State as you would guess. This is what happens when the husband passes away, because that is where we are really, I think, concerned the most is when the widow is on her own. That is because there is a dual entitlement offset. I think that is one of the myths you talk about today: Their spouses' benefits are reduced by two-thirds. So, they keep more than the Social Security families.

If we were to repeal GPO, the gap between all the rest of America, 96 percent who are Social Security families and the 4 percent that are not, would increase dramatically, because when you repeal GPO, you, in effect, treat those families like they have never worked at all; they are completely dependent, and so, we give them all of their husband's benefits. My question to our panelists today is sort of to verify this formula: Barbara, if you would like to start or Robert-- Ms. Well, in fact, this is one of the issues of fairness that we have raised. One of the things that I think Congress would have to consider in assessing these bills is that the GPO was designed to create a rough equivalence between people who have not been covered by Social Security and so have not been making contributions to the system and coulpes who have both been working and contributing--dually-entitled, we call them.

Those latter folks are offset. So, that is the source of the GPO. If you were to repeal the GPO without consideration of the dually-entitled couples, you would restore that inherent inequity. Yes, I would concur with that, Mr. That you increase the gap between identical families? They would be treated much differently if GPO was repealed--identical families? I believe that would be the case, as I understand your question. You are referring to a family where both a husband and spouse were covered by Social Security; when the husband or one of the spouses dies, then, the surviving spouse has an option of getting either her own benefit or the spousal benefit.

In the circumstance where the spouse in this family was covered, and the spouse in the other family was working in a non-covered situation, the latter would get a full spousal benefit absent the GPO. This type of-- Mr. Without the GPO, the spouse in the latter situation would get the full benefit of their pension, as well as, the full spousal benefit. So, this chart is essentially correct for the average Social Security and GPO family in America as far as treatment of how their retirement and spousal benefits would work? I believe it is. Let me just make a point, and David, if you could change this real quickly; real quickly, Mr. Chairman, I think we have got three myths surrounding Social Security that are being discussed today that I think are real important.

Just so you know, I have put these charts together trying to wade through the complications of Social Security and find out how this affected my families; the more work I did, the more I realized that these myths really, I think, are hurting the debate. The first is, back home, I hear this all the time: In a recent town hall meeting with of my best teachers there, I asked the question how many of you know, how many of you realize that every other working family in America has an offset, too, has their spouses' benefits reduced? Not a single hand went up. No one was aware, and no one had been told that everyone else in America has an offset.

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